2 réflexions au sujet de « Duc & pair de France : Montbazon »

1. Dubédat 23 juin 2019 ​à 9 h 09 min

   la filiation donnée ici avec Henri IV est illégitime: Jeanne de LUYNES était la maitresse du roi de PIEMONT et sa descendance a été légitimée a posteriori par Victor-Amédée…

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2. F.W.L. Auteur de l’article5 juillet 2019 ​à 16 h 23 min

   Suite à cet article, F.W.L. , un historien médiéviste a adressé ses commentaires
   

   1) As soon as Prince Charles-Raoul de Rohan (Rochefort) (1954) succeeded his cousin, the Austrian diplomat Prince Albert de Rohan in April 2019 as 16th Duc de Montbazon and 17th Prince de Guemene (France), he became undisputed head of the ancient French-Breton House of Rohan and as such bears the undifferenced coat of arms of Rohan (he is no longer primarily a Rohan-Rochefort). This was originally incorrect on the site but the correct coat of arms is now displayed.

   2) American citizens cannot be granted titles by the USA Federal government (or individual states) under its Constitution but they can inherit titles from abroad. See: https://www.irontontribune.com/2009/02/28/can-american-citizens-hold-royal-titles/ The current 16th Duc de Montbazon and Prince de Guemene, his brother, Prince Geoffrey de Rohan and the latter’s son Prince Rembert de Rohan (1986), are American citizens but presumably can hold their French/Austrian titles. (Query: could they apply either to France or to Austria for dual citizenship?) The remaining Rohan family members resident in England may need an official statement from the British Crown to hold their titles publicly. But as members of a sovereign House, their need to do this is debatable. Several of the cousins (nos. 4-8) of the head of the House live in Great Britain.

   3) Prince Charles-Raoul de Rohan (1954) has two daughters: Princess Catherine de Rohan (1989) and her sister. Inheritance in the princely House of Rohan is by male primogeniture.
   His heir is his brother Prince Geoffrey Alexander Francis de Rohan (1958) who in turn has a son Prince Rembert Charles Francis de Rohan (1986) apparently still unmarried.
   This branch of the Rohan is now the senior branch being Ducs de Montbazon (1589) by grant of King Henri III, and Princes de Guemene, a principality which was erected for them by King Charles IX in 1570. The other Rohan titles eg. Prince de Rochefort et Montauban were apparently just assumed by them without an official creation. The family head seems entitled to call himself Duc de Bouillon according to the decision of the Congress of Vienna (1816). See the site in French:
   https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maison_de_Rohan#Branche_de_Rohan-Rochefort a site which apparently does not know that American citizens can use titles from abroad since it does not give (Prince) Charles-Raoul de Rohan (1954) his French and Austrian titles.

   Henri Duc de Rohan-Chabot (1645, creation of Louis XIV) « ce qui passer le title de Duc de Rohan dans la maison de Chabot qui prirent le nom de Rohan-Chabot malgre l’opposition des Rohans subsistantes ». Alain, 13th Duc de Rohan-Chabot, his honourable descendant, was in the French resistance in World War II. He is an excellent administrator, holds the Rohan castle of Josselin and is chief of the House of Chabot with a female-line Rohan descent. Up until the early 17th century the Rohan for some 500 years had held to strictly male primogeniture. The House of Rohan-Chabot is not generally considered to be part of the Rohan princely family.

   4) I recently read the book Les Rohans (Perrin, 2017) by Eric Mension-Rigau It gives generally authentic facts, especially on de Rohan medieval members, but the author does not delve far enough back into the origins of the family. The main focus of the book (over 50% after the early 17th century), is on the House of Rohan-Chabot and not on the male line descendants of the House of Rohan-Guemene. So we still await a scholarly 21st-century book on the princely House of Rohan.

   5) I have compiled from scholarly sources the following early genealogy of the ancestors of de Rohan nobles (father to son):
   (Comte?) Ridoredh, ca. 850, noble Breton
   Alain « le Grand » (en breton: Alan), Comte de Vannes 877-907. Dernier Roi de Bretagne 890-907+ (ou Roi des Bretons)
   Comte Pascweten (de Rennes?) +903
   Judicael (Juhel) Berenger, Comte de Rennes +ca.?970
   Conan « le Tort », Comte de Rennes, ca. 970-992, Duc de Bretagne (990-992+)
   Judicael,Vicomte de Porhoet,+1037 (possibly identifiable with Judicael Bishop of Vannes which, if true, might imply the Bishop was non-canonically married or that Guethenoc, next in line, was his natural son )
   Guethenoc Vicomte de Porhoet, ca. 990-1040)
   Josselin I de Porhoet, 1025-1074, Vcte. de Bretagne et de Rennes
   Eudon (Eon) Vcte de Porhoet et de Rennes, 1049-1092
   Vicomte Alain « le Noir » (ca.1085-1128) ancetre de la Maison noble de Rohan.

   The main question mark in this genealogy is the existence of Judicael Vicomte de Porhoet (+1037). More research is needed since one cannot depend too heavily on the 17th century Breton genealogist, du Paz. In some genealogies Ridoredh (ca.830-857?) is called Comte de Nantes et de Vannes, being son of Erispoe II, (b.794) duc de Bretagne. There does not seem, however, to exist medieval charters or scholarly information to confirm the historicity of this relationship. Internet sites such as Genii are too conjectural in their conclusions.

   The relationships immediately after Alain le Grand have been debatable, but a group of Angevin genealogies of the 11th century (only 150+ years or so later and viewable on the net) give Pascweten as son of Duc Alain le Grand and grandfather of Duc Conan « le Tort. » This genealogy is accepted by most scholars if not all. So the 18th century de Rohans were correct in calling themselves « princes etrangers en France » and their ancestry at least was accepted by Louis XIV and Louis XV. The de Rohan also intermingled by marriage with several of the main Breton families which gave rulers to Bretagne in the 8th to 11th centuries. And at the very end of Breton independence the de Rohan made a bid for the Breton ducal throne. Princesse Marie de Bretagne (1446-1517), second daughter of Duc Francois I de Bretagne (duc, 1442-1450) married Jean II, Vicomte de Rohan, Comte de Porhoet (1452-1516) by whom she had seven children. Upon the death of Francois II, the last independent duc de Bretagne in 1488, Vicomte Jean de Rohan allowed himself (to his detriment) to adhere to Charles VIII of France who claimed the duchy. Jean de Rohan conquered parts of Bretagne and called himself Duc de Bretagne (1488-89) until Charles VIII reined him in, since Charles intended to marry the heiress of Bretagne himself. But the de Rohan were outwitted by the French monarchy which had more resources to win the battle for power. And so Bretagne became part of France, although much of its culture and Celtic language remained. And the de Rohan also remained: the most interesting part of their history still lay ahead of them.

   In the 17th-18th centuries, the Rohan dynasty claimed to be descended from Conan Meriadoc (Caradog), supposedly the founder of Bretagne ca 383, died ca. 421, But this figure only appears in medieval records from the 12th century on. Current historians consider him totally legendary. But it was their supposed descent from Conan Meriadoc (as well as several of the 9th-10th century historical Ducs de Bretagne), which led the Rohan to claim to be « princes etrangers » at the courts of Louis XIV, XV. Perhaps the famous motto, assigned to the Rohan, dates from this late period: « Roi ne puis, Prince ne daigne, Rohan suis. » Whether historical or not, the motto certainly expresses their famous family solidarity with perhaps a touch of arrogance. In the 18th century the de Rohan mixed with the highest royals on both sides of the blanket. A mid 18th century Rohan princess was the mistress of Prince Charles Edward Stuart, grandson of King James II of England. And a Stuart-Rohan relationship lasted till the end of the 18th century, since Princess Charlotte of Albany, daughter of Prince Charles Edward, had three children out of wedlock with Ferdinand de Rohan, Prince-Archbishop of Cambrai (d. 1813). Revelations of this relationship was only uncovered in detail around twenty years ago.

   CURRENT HEAD OF THE ANCIENT BRETON HOUSE OF DE ROHAN

   Prince Charles-Raoul de Rohan (born 1954), 16th Duc de Montbazon, 17th Prince de Guemene, Prince de Rochefort et de Montauban (France). 24th de jure Duc de Bouillon counting the early three Bishops of Liege which, until the French Revolution, was an independent principality: Positive decision of the Congress of Vienna (1816), but the House of Rohan did not succeed in taking physical possession of the Duchy. Prince Charles-Raoul is an American citizen but that fact does not forbid him to assume his French-Austrian titles (see above) if he so wishes. His branch of the family was no longer closely associated with Austria after the late 19th century.

   Duche-pairie de Montbazon was erected in May 1588 for Louis VII de Rohan by King Henri III; in 1595 King Henri IV erected the peerage a second time in favour of Hercule de Rohan, nephew of Louis VII, who became 2nd Duc de Montbazon. It is the second French duchy-peerage after le Duc de Uzes who also has an 11th-century ancestry.

   HSH Charles-Raoul, (born 1954) Prinz von Rohan of the Holy Roman Empire (then of Austria). creation of 1808, to which the Austrian Emperor attached the dignity of « Serene Highness ».This dignity clarified that the Rohan were on the same level (or higher) as the majority of the German and Austrian princely (ruling) houses into which families they married in the 19th century. Most of the de Rohan moved to Austria-Bohemia at the time of the Napoleonic Wars and were integrated into the Austrian Empire.

   Since the death in Vienna of HSH Albert Prinz von Rohan, Prince de Guemene, 15th Duc de Montbazon (France) in 2019 his distant cousin Charles-Raoul de Rohan has become the head of the ducal-princely House of Rohan. The eight remaining members of the noble House de Rohan in remainder to the French/Austrian titles are given in the other article on this site. Whether the current American head of the House (or his successors) will assume more of a relationship to France or Austria remains to be seen. As the head of probably the most interesting aristocratic family from Bretagne-France, with a very rich history, he should consider doing so.
   See also: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercule_de_Rohan-Montbazon

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